Talk:The Tier List/@comment-35724435-20180605144330/@comment-35724435-20180611000443

It seems that our conflict stems from lack of understanding each others' view point more than actual disagreement.

I assumed that from the beginning, Broly's placement hinges entirely on the fact that STR Rosé is the leader in the team discussed. It was my fault for assuming that he is a common card . If players doesn't own STR Rosé themselves and the OG is used as subsitute, then all my following arguement is moot, since the team has significantly less raw stats and using Broly leave the team wide open, a one turn kill is incredibly likely in newer events. Thus he becomes a liability and should not be S Tier. This I can agree with. However, on a double STR Rosé lead team, he doesn't have below average DEF( I assumed 30k was with dupes, since w/o defensive support, SSj3 Gotenks actually only has 17k on Rainbow Super and 23k on SSj3). I don't know how you got to 7k but Broly actually have better DEF on this team than Gotenks does:

6,875(No dupes DEF) × 3.4( Dual STR Rosé leads) =  23,375

23,375 × 1.5(Rosé's pasive) = 35,063

About Broly's passive: since Broly's and Rosé's passive are both start of turn pasive, they stack additively, meaning the DEF Broly loses while collecting orbs is subtracted from Rosé's passive, not his total DEF like you assumed.

35,063- (23,375×0.1×6)(six orbs collected)=21,038

While you get this type of damage :

13300(No dupes ATK)×3.4×2.72(passive w/ six orbs)×1.35(SSj,Nightmare,FB)×1.5(12 Ki)×5.35=1,332,534

Compared to Rosé himself : 1,365,606

So by losing 10% of his original DEF, Broly's damage rises almost to Rosé's. Not to say they're equal, since Rosé does a crapload more than just damage, but still, that beats out any other S-Tier TURs except Omega.

You misunderstood me when I said that no events can kill a Villain team. I did not place them at the top of all teams(Potara is IMO), just merely stated that they are one of the tougher teams in the game(some Category teams beat them in this) and such instances of being killed while using them are rarer than less tanky teams( like their Super counterpart).

Regarding the AGL units. I don't understand why you keep bringing up MV's DEF as I've continually stated that he doesn't compare to 17 in terms of defensive capability, and only refered his DEF as being "about twice that of an average non tanking unit' which as you claimed is 30k(most likely w/ supp) compared to his 59k, no where in my posts did I make a comparison between him and 17. I do see why 17 is your go to choice since you are running a weaker LS and doesn't have access to the 50% DEF across the board, I'd probably run the same team comp had I not pulled STR Rosé. Same deal w/ Turles, run him on double STR, 17 if LS is lower.

"I think the problem you have for Broly is that you actually think that everyone has Rose". True, my apologies for being presumptous and using myself as an anecdoctal example. However, on such teams, I do still think he's the third best unit in the TEQ slot(behind the LRs and maybe Cell).

" for 17 is that you don't praise his defensive viability". Yes and no, I do see him as very defensive and actually decent damaging unit( more so w/ supp since his passive stacks w/ theirs multiplicatively) and is probably the best Extreme AGL at no dupes level. But, compared to units of his same ilk, Janemba being a good example, he's just a bit behind on both fronts. Nevertheless, I do think I had been a bit harsh on him, and he deserves most of the praises you had given him.

"and for MZ that you don't consider his linkset and hidden power, mine rainbow is my hardest hitting unit". This is where I have to disagree w/ you. You're making the same mistake I did, using yourself as anecdoctal example and presuming that everybody have MZ rainbowed. Even so, his damage w/ all links and rainbowed (1,51mil) is only ahead of 17 (1.2mil), Janemba (1.38mil) and OG Rosé (1.47mil). While impressive, the next Extreme DFE, Cooler, hits 1.75mil and have twice the DEF when at equal dupe level (80k/100k w/ Rosé vs 38k/57k). So, placing him above all Extreme units except the main leaders w/o doing so for the VBs is very biased IMO. Not to say he's bad, because he isn't. It's just that power creep had left him a bit behind compared to newer units.